"Disability Is A Teaching Opportunity", with James Bonilla, on His Memoir An Eye For An I, Disability Advocacy, and Intersectionality.

Zhou Fang: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality, intersectional journeys, and intersectional stories. Um, and every story, you know, behind every story, we have a storyteller. We have someone who's experienced life and then come on and share their own experience with us, and today is no exception.

And, um, I would love to invite my guest today to introduce himself, because he came to me, I think earlier this year, kind of out of the blue, and told me about his memoir, which was fascinating. Um, so I [00:01:00] had a opportunity to chat with him a little bit and get to learn her, his, sorry, his story a little bit.

Um, so his name is James Bonilla, and he is the author of a memoir, An Eye for An I, and the last I is just the letter I. Um, so, uh, and James lives in Minnesota, and so I would love to welcome James and ask him to introduce himself. Welcome, James.

James Bonilla: Nice. Well, thank you for inviting me to be on your program. Um, as you mentioned, I, um- Wrote the book An Eye for an Eye: Living with Blindness, uh, Disability and Family Mental Illness, which I think tied in well with your book's, your, your podcast theme about intersectionality.

Sort of I got to live that, and it was really only in reflection [00:02:00] that I got to live that. I, um, I found that when I started to write the book, I was really writing about blindness and being a Puerto Rican growing up in New York. I was born in New York.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: But in the process I realized that issues of family mental illness and generational trauma were a big part of the story, so the, the book evolved.

Um, before I wrote this, and actually, mm, I was already in the process of retiring, I was a professor of, um, organizational behavior, or as I used to call it, organizational misbehavior- ... at Hamline University in St. Paul, Minnesota. Um, I taught there for about 20 years. Before that I was a community, uh ... Well, before that I was a recreation therapist working with disabled populations in New York and in California, which is where I got involved with the disability [00:03:00] rights movement.

Zhou Fang: Oh.

James Bonilla: And then I was a community organizer in Upstate New York working around low income, uh, uh, housing issues, energy issues. But, uh, I was, spent a lot of my time at Hamline teaching around social justice and thinking about those topics. As you mentioned, right now I live in Winona, Minnesota, um, which is, uh, I live in the midst of the bluffs of Min- of, uh, the county-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: the, the scenic Mississippi River, and we live among lots of deer who make my gardening wife not happy all the time. So. I mean, that's cute. But it's a great place to live, and I have to say, you know, even though I'm born and bred New Yorker, uh, particularly in the last year or two I have become incredibly proud of living in Minnesota just because I think they did such an amazing smack up [00:04:00] job of standing up to ICE and the anti-immigrant surge.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: It just made me proud to be living in Minnesota.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, that's awesome. That, the fact that, you know, you came from New York, and then you mentioned you were in California for a while, and then now in Minnesota, that's quite a journey. And, um, before we talk about maybe the inspiration behind the book, I'm actually really curious about...

'Cause I know when you were born or when, when you were really young, you had a disability, and still do, I believe, uh, in one of your eyes at least. So going through that, as you, uh, wrote about in your book, you know, um, experiencing blindness and bigotry, um, as a person, person with disability and person of color, and eventually you got really involved into the, [00:05:00] uh, disability rights movement.

So I'm really curious to learn about that journey. Like, how did you transition from an individual who goes through all these challenges, these very intersectional kind of disadvantages in your life, and turn that into, um, advocacy and activism?

James Bonilla: So, so here's the truth that probably comes across in the book.

When I was 15, I was taking services from the New York Association for the Blind in Manhattan. And, uh, as most 15-year-olds, I had fallen head over heels for this older participant named Kathy. And one day she came to me and she said, "Bonilla, aren't you really sick and tired of the music that we play for our recreation hour is always sort of white music being spun by these counselors at this, this center [00:06:00] who are all white and from Long Island?"

And meanwhile, all the participants were Black and Latino.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And she said, you know, "We, we have to do something about this." So I said, "Sure. Whatever you say, Kathy." So this was not out of a big social justice perspective. I was just following my 15-year-old hormones. And we ended up taking over the lobby of the New York Association for the Blind, which happened to be in a very busy corner almost across the street from Bloomingdale's.

Mm. So that there was literally hundreds if not thousands of people passing. The, the front of the building were these big glass doors. And, um, we ended up taking over the lobby, which everybody from the outside could see, and we were chanting and carrying on. And eventually the program director came down and he met with us, but he told us we had to get out of the lobby.

And in the process, not only did we [00:07:00] get control of the turntable, but we were, uh, afforded a promise that he would hire, even though the New York State Asso- the New York Association for the Blind, they, they didn't have a single blind person on staff

Zhou Fang: Okay ...

James Bonilla: and so w- we got a promise that they would, you know.

Yeah. And this is where it becomes similar to other issues, the intersectionality issues, right? Mm-hmm. Exclusion.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, and then the following year I was the first, uh, legally blind camper to go to their summer camp in New Jersey. Mm. They had never had a, a legally blind counselor. So-

Zhou Fang: That's wild.

James Bonilla: Yeah, and I remember saying to Kathy, "Man, this is a rush," because, you know, we actually got most of the things that we were asking for.

So that was really sort of my initial introduction into the disability rights movement, even though this was back in 1970. Mm-hmm. And the disability rights movement had [00:08:00] just, you know, this was at the infant stage.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: I ended up graduating from college. I had my eyesight corrected, by the way. So as you mentioned- Mm

I still don't see out of my left eye.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: But my right eye, uh, basically because of a racist attack, uh, I'd gotten hit in the, my one good eye, my right eye, with a horseshoe, and the eyesight there completely went, and that's how I ended up from age nine to 19 legally blind.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: But at 19 I did have surgery in the w- in the one good eye, and it restored my sight to normal.

I still don't see out of my left eye.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: But i- in the process of college, I ended up getting an internship at a recreation center for disabled youth and adults in San Francisco, and the story there was, and, and this is where it becomes ironic, because California at that time had the most progressive governor in the country, Jerry Brown.[00:09:00]

But Jerry Brown was a c- fiscal conservative and he wanted to save money.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: So he decided he would cut transportation services for people with disabilities.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: And that basically doomed people to living in their houses because most of those folks, we couldn't drive. Mm-hmm. And we ended up going up to Sacramento in a caravan, and we took over Jerry Brown's office for three days.

And it turned out that this was also in the midst of Judy Heumann, who's one of the founders of the disability rights movement, went to San Francisco and she took over the Health and Human Service. So there was a lot of, uh, protest, sit-ins. We did not, that, you know, and this is one of the lessons, even though it was a rush, we didn't win.

It took him two years before he restored that funding.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: But it really was part of an upsurge, an uptick, an emergence of the disability rights [00:10:00] movement. And, um, so that's how I got into doing that kind of work. And, and I stayed with that work for quite a while. I came back to New York, again, because, you know, my heart led me back to somebody.

And,

Zhou Fang: um- ...

James Bonilla: I ended up getting a position as a community organizer in upstate New York.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: And that's when I started working with low income folks, low income white people, low income Black folks. And that was my introduction, not just to the disability rights movement, but to the broader social justice movement.

And, um, so I did that for quite a few years until I burnt out and ended up going back to graduate school and, uh, becoming a professor around social justice work.

Zhou Fang: Oh, that is so cool. Um- So after you went back to grad school and kind of t-t- uh, [00:11:00] was your degree social justice?

James Bonilla: My degree was in organizational behavior.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: But what I was studying and what I was writing about was how do we create more multicultural organizations. Mm-hmm. And my specialty became how to create more multicultural institutions of higher education. So I ended up, you know, I ended up teaching about organizational behavior. I developed a course around cultural competence and leadership, but I also did a lot of consulting- Mm-hmm

around how do we create more diverse institutions. And eventually I, I specialized in how do we create more diverse environmental organizations. I think the title of the article I wrote was Making Green Organizations Multicultural.

Zhou Fang: Huh. Uh, I love that. Um, you said you also consulted, so did you do that, like, while you were teaching?

Yes. Yeah. And how was [00:12:00] that experience for you? Bec- because I feel like being, um, being in academia and being outside of academia, they kind of like- Yeah ... do they go hand-in-hand in your opinion or they can kind of run into each other?

James Bonilla: Um, well, I mean, part of why I specialized in doing diversity work within higher ed is that it's, it's a unique culture.

In some ways each college or institution is pretty unique. But I did realize that the key from my perspective was working with faculty and administrative leaders. Mm. I think students are doing on one level a great job of agitating and making those people uncomfortable.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: But they, they had no idea about how to change their organization.

So part of what I had done for my research was to study institutions that had gone through a m- multi-year process of becoming more diverse and, and having some ideas about how to go and do that. Mm. Um, and you're right, [00:13:00] I think higher education is a very different, uh, creature.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: You know, what, what we noticed was, and I didn't do consulting in the corporate sector-

Zhou Fang: Mm

James Bonilla: but a lot of corporations, including the US military at the time, not today, were doing cutting edge diversity work.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: Um, not because they thought it was a social justice imperative, but because they saw it was good business.

Zhou Fang: Yes. I

James Bonilla: agree. So, and, you know, and we're sort of taking a step backward right now during this sort of horrible era, but I, I, I

There are still organizations, big ones, who have not given up their diversity efforts because they realize it's not just the right thing to do, it's good business. And part of what I said to the folks in higher ed is, this next generation of people who come to higher ed will not look like the white folks that were before it.

Same thing I say to the environmental organizations. The future of the environmental [00:14:00] movement is in the hands, will be in the hands of a very different cohort of people.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And, you know, people are starting to get that. I start to see ... I s- I did my article about diversity in green organizations back in 2008.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And I'm really quite pleased at how much progress has been made-

Zhou Fang: Yeah ...

James Bonilla: in, in that domain.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: Still lots to go, but.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, of course. I mean, now I really would love to invite you to some, um, m- potential kind of conferences, like, where you can talk about the progress you have not only witnessed, but participated and got involved with, just to see how much we have done.

Like, even though right now it feels very challenging, it feels like two steps forward and one step back, or sometimes- Yeah ... even three steps back. Yeah. But- I think that's correct ... you know. Yeah, but speaking from, like, a multi-generational kind of [00:15:00] perspective, just because this generation is seeing this kind of, like, backwards, um, process, it doesn't mean, you know, looking at a big picture, we are actually making a lot of progress.

So I feel like- Yeah ... you know, talking about multi- uh, multi-generational or intergenerational kind of, uh, leadership perspective, I feel it would be really cool to have you speak to those topics.

James Bonilla: Well, you know, it's been interesting. I did a sort of what I call my little East Coast mini book tour, uh, and I went to a couple of different campuses, one of which was my own campus, SUNY Cortland.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And when I went to Cortland, you know, one of the things that made it very difficult for me, I almost took a header off of a building, was how unhappy I was, and part of what contributed to that was my invisibility. Professors couldn't tell-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: that I was disabled. Um-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: and so they would point at me when, you know, I'd raise [00:16:00] my hand, but I couldn't see them, and so then I didn't even know that they were calling on me.

Hmm. Um, but the, some of the more obvious things were students, you know, I would play my Latin music or Motown, and the students from Long Island who po- you know, po- there was maybe 15 kids of color-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: at Cortland at the time that I went there- Mm-hmm ... in a population of 5,000.

Zhou Fang: Oh my God. That's, uh- So, yeah, yeah

what's the percentage?

James Bonilla: Yeah, yeah. So, um, you know, I would be playing my music, and they would turn up their big, expensive stereo systems so that I couldn't even hear my own music. I mean, that was not subtle, but sometimes they would do more overt things like they would say, "How you doing, Go-go Gomez?" Which was a sort of racist cartoon at the time.

Or they would say, "Oh man, where's your switchblade?" Because, you know, they'd seen West Side Story, and they had that stereotype of Puerto Ricans.

Zhou Fang: Oh.

James Bonilla: So I, you know- Wow ... I was pretty unhappy. And when I went back, back in [00:17:00] March, and I did a talk about my book, I met with, they invited the student government to a luncheon.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And not only was there now a disability services program on campus-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: but there was also a counseling program that would've been very helpful in my dealing with my own struggles around mental illness.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And when the students showed up at the luncheon, uh, half of the student government were New York Puerto Rican women.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And it was just, it was just so inspiring. And, and they- Mm ... would tell their stories, and they would listen to my story.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And, you know, part of what I saw was, like you were alluding to, a certain amount of hopelessness as things have gotten so bad-

Zhou Fang: True ...

James Bonilla: so quickly. And, you know, I can't deny that. But I think they found it helpful and perspective giving, and, you know, that while things were bad back [00:18:00] then-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: many things have improved.

Zhou Fang: Right.

James Bonilla: So I think that students today need to have some idea, like you were alluding to, that things are bad, and they can get better. They have gotten better, and they will get better again.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's very wise. And I am just imagining when you are back in that room, you know, or that space, uh, seeing so much kind of have changed for the better.

Like, was that kind of emotional, or how did you feel?

James Bonilla: Yeah. Oh, I, I felt like I just kept tapping my heart.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: Because it just was so moving to see. And, and these were- Yeah, I imag- I imagine ... very assertive young leaders.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

James Bonilla: You know, uh, and, and, you know, I got a, a letter from the head of the counseling program at Cortland several weeks later saying how impressed she was that students were so willing to share-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: some of the dilemmas that they were having-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: that, you know, she and the other [00:19:00] staff and faculty didn't know about. She said, "And I think that's in part because you role modeled sharing." But, um, you know, I, I do think that given a forum, students will share some of the anxiety. One of the things I learned when I was there was that rough...

I think New York Times ran an article- Mm ... saying that roughly 25% of college students today identify as having a disability. Mm. Many of whom are identifying as dealing with depression and anxiety.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: So, you know, that's, that's a big telling thing.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

James Bonilla: Um, so I mean, the other thing that I will, you know, and talking with somebody who thinks about intersectionality is very helpful for me.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: I feel like the traditional social justice issues like racism, sexism, heterosexism, have really been taking a beating in the past- Mm ... you know, two years.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And one of the things [00:20:00] that I'm hopeful about is that unlike some of those other isms, in audiences that I speak to, most people can then identify with being Puerto Rican, or if it's a male, a male, et cetera, et cetera.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: But everybody can identify or know somebody who's had a disability, many times themselves.

Zhou Fang: True.

James Bonilla: So the idea of temporarily able-bodied-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: I think becomes an opportunity for us to reach folks who have sort of been turned off to social justice work, you know, by the sort of national, uh, environment, but who can relate.

And, you know, there's so many similarities between issues of, um- Race, sexism, et cetera, and disability, it becomes [00:21:00] a teaching opportunity

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: Um, you know, I tell my story about how, uh, as a kid, you know, I had very well-intentioned people, you know, even when they're well-intentioned, you know, I had a rehabilitation counselor, I went to him to sign a piece of paper so that I could go to college

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: And when I walked in his office, he said, "Well, James, most of my students," because he was a rehab counselor, "c- don't go to college.

But I, this is your lucky day. I have an o- an opening that I've just found out about at Grand Central Station in New York. You could sell newspapers at the kiosk, and you'd make a very nice living."

Zhou Fang: Geez. Okay.

James Bonilla: Yeah, yeah. But you know, it, it, again, it's that way that, you know, um, lowered expectations for people who are different.

Yeah. The idea that difference equal deficit.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, and, you know, I don't know what possessed me-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: but thinking on my feet, I said to him, "Well, sir, I, I wanna be [00:22:00] like you someday. I wanna help people with disabilities, which is why I wanna go to college."

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: And it sort of, you know- He wasn't as offended when I said, "Could you please sign this?"

And he did, but- Oh, okay ... um, it was one of the places where I realized how institutional oppression- I find- ... operates not just around racism or sexism or hetero-, but operates around disability.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Still

James Bonilla: does.

Zhou Fang: No.

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: It still does. I mean, it show up, it shows up in different ways, and, you know, as you mentioned, James, the institutional oppression is, is in- so ingrained into our, just every, every day, I think.

We don't even think about it. Even if, you know, this professor or, um, this supervisor, he probably didn't mean bad, but the kind of assumption that you wouldn't be going to college, he just kind of, like, assumed you would be going to sell [00:23:00] paper or something. Yeah. Like, there's nothing wrong about selling paper, I gotta say.

Right, right. It's like,

James Bonilla: great

Zhou Fang: job, and if you like reading, great bonus, right? Yeah, right. Like, you can read while you sell paper. There's nothing wrong about that. It's a cool job. At the same time, the thing is, you should be making that decision for yourself, not him. I

James Bonilla: had different aspirations.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, so it's like-

James Bonilla: He didn't have room for those in his head.

Zhou Fang: Right, like he was- Yeah ... just assumed or potentially made that decision for you.

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, and it still happens every day. Yeah, people just- Yeah ... assume, "Oh, I thought you would do that," or, "I thought you would know," or, "I thought that's what you were gonna do," right? Like, but no, like, especially for, I don't know, like, people of color, for folks from the LGBTQ community, for folks with disability.

There are so many things we wanna do.

James Bonilla: Yeah. The, the, and I think that's the, that's the rub, [00:24:00] that, you know, institutions, some have gotten better, some have not. Um-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: so in the, in the interest of helping, they often hinder.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: Hmm. Um, you know, I, I remember, and, and this ties into also my being Puerto Rican.

When I was young, um, my mother enrolled me in Catholic school, and that's because she grew up in Puerto Rico and she went to Catholic school.

Zhou Fang: Sure.

James Bonilla: And I loved it the first two years. I loved it because I was an only child. Oh, my God, kids to play with. It was just delightful. Uh, but then I had a nun who said, "You know, James has a speech impediment, and we're gonna put him in a different class."

Well, the class they put me in was, quote-unquote, the slow class.

Turns out when I was in graduate school, I did some research, and it turns out literally tens of [00:25:00] thousands of Latino kids had been tracked into slow classes, not because they were slow, but because they had an accent, and that was considered a disability. And, you know, so that notion of lowered difference equal deficit and lowered expectations You know, ran for, you know, and, and when they had many of these kids retested, many of them tested out of slow- Mm-hmm

and some of them tested above average. But because the testers this time were bilingual-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: they were able to not label that difference as deficit, so.

Zhou Fang: That's such a good, uh, example, and I'm sorry that happened to you. I had a, not exactly the same experience, but similar experience, 'cause I went to grad school, uh, at, um, Kansas State University.

James Bonilla: Oh, sure.

Zhou Fang: And so I moved there, like, directly from China. [00:26:00] Um- Oh

James Bonilla: my.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, so I went to K State, and I had finished my college degree in China, and, um, but before they actually enrolled me into grad school, like officially, they put me on, like, probation. And, and then they asked me to take an exam to decide if I deserved to be enrolled into class, like the English whatever exam.

James Bonilla: Hmm.

Zhou Fang: And, and they gave the exam to us and other international students basically just in a room, right? Like a testing room. And it was the second or the third day after I arrived, so. Oh

James Bonilla: my.

Zhou Fang: So basically I just got dropped in the middle of the country, and I don't, I know two people maybe at a point. Oh my.

And then they are like, "You go to take this exam that's supposed to test your English level." And then [00:27:00] I was still so jet lagged. Sure. And then they, they entirely didn't consider all that, didn't allow us to, to get used to the environment- Sure, sure ... or to meet people or even talk to a professor. Like, none of that had happened.

The first thing was the English exam.

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: And then after you pass that, you get out of the probation. It's, yeah, so, but I, I got through it, and, um, some students though, some international student did end up taking one or two additional classes before they could go to their real kind of-

James Bonilla: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ...

Zhou Fang: you know, the classes they sign up for.

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I can definitely resonate with your experience because- Yeah ... just because you have an accent doesn't mean... Yeah. Anyway.

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: So thank

James Bonilla: you for sharing that. And what happened was a- after that happened and they put me into the slow class, I got into trouble because I was bored. [00:28:00]

Zhou Fang: You were fast.

And

James Bonilla: then, and then the nuns told my mother, "He's not really working out here, but we know this..." They called it a boarding school run by Brothers of the Sacred Heart, and they said, "James needs a male influence," 'cause my father had left when I was- Mm ... excuse me, four.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And, um, turned out that this boarding school was actually a reform school, that New York State sent juvenile delinquents to this school.

And while I was at that school, I was only nine, I was playing horseshoes with a guy. And again, my eyesight in my left eye was never good, but-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: at nine my right eye was fine.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: He hauled off, because I was beating him in horseshoes, and threw a horseshoe at my face, hit me in my one good eye, and then I hemorrhaged for three days before they sent me to the hospital.

Oh. And by that time I had lost most of the sight-

Zhou Fang: Yeah ...

James Bonilla: in my right eye at age nine, and that continued until I was 19 when I had that surgery done. So-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: you know, a- and here's [00:29:00] one more irony.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: That's a... I ended up having to go to special... I could no longer stay in Catholic schools because they had no programs back then-

Zhou Fang: Mm

James Bonilla: for kids with disabilities. New York State, thanks to Judy Heumann, had been forced b- legally to- Mm ... provide services. So by the time I got to the New York City public schools, they had classes, support classes for kids with disabilities like me. And because of that, I got all this extra attention, which most of the Puerto Rican kids in New York City schools were not getting.

At that time in New York, fully 80% of all Puerto Rican kids never graduated.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: Never graduated. Because I was getting that extra attention-

Zhou Fang: Hmm ...

James Bonilla: I ended up doing really well. And you know, which the lesson there is you give kids attention and they'll thrive. Yeah. You lower expectations and they'll [00:30:00] live up or live down to those expectations.

Zhou Fang: I know. If you told them they are slow, they'll be like, "Well, I guess I'm slow."

James Bonilla: Right. Right. Right. So, you know, this is one of those interesting, uh, almost contradictions that- Mm-hmm ... you know, my, you know, I say, I say some- in the book, "The blindness didn't just happen to me, it also happened for me."

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And that's one example of where, because society had moved a little bit more forward around disability than it had on race-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: I was getting the attention that all kids would thrive with.

Zhou Fang: Right.

James Bonilla: Uh, and that was the saving grace for me. Hmm. You know? I mean- Wow ... if I hadn't gotten that, I probably would've dropped out like 80% of the other Puerto Rican kids in high school.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful, and I mean, it's very profound as well.

Um, so now I really wanna go to, you know, your ins- [00:31:00] inspiration for your memoir. And, um, for folks who are unfamiliar with the book, um, it's called An Eye for an Eye: Growing Up with Blindness, Bigotry, and Family Mental Illness. Um, so my understanding is you could have retired and just kind of like sailing into the sunset, right?

James Bonilla: One of the great myths of retirement. Yes, you're right.

Zhou Fang: Why? Why did you write this

James Bonilla: book?

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

James Bonilla: Well, again, you know, I, uh, I, I... When I tell this story, I think it, it reduces me a little bit in people's e- estimations. I didn't write, start out wanting to write a memoir. I actually started out writing a novel just as I was...

A few years before, um, I retired, I started writing a novel about a fictional village in, um, Minnesota that was coming to terms, rather badly, with its own diversity.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And, you know, the, the adage [00:32:00] is write what you know. And, you know, I knew a little bit about that because I was living in a small town, Minnesota, but my main character, my protagonist- Mm

I made a New York Puerto Rican lesbian.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And I knew very, you know, that, that character never really worked,

Zhou Fang: um-

James Bonilla: Mm ... because I just didn't have the, the expertise-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: or, or the knowledge, right?

Zhou Fang: Right.

James Bonilla: I ended up taking a writing class at Madeline Island, Wisconsin, and the instructor who knew me from a couple of years said, "Well, you know, James, if this novel isn't working out, you should write your own memoir, because it's an interesting story."

Um, and that afternoon, I basically, uh, did a whole, uh, timeline of the novel in one afternoon.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: But even when I started writing the memoir, my thought was, "Well, I'm gonna write about being Puerto Rican and blind. That's odd enou- and then [00:33:00] getting my eyesight back. That sh- should be exciting enough."

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And the, you know, they say- Mm ... this happens to you as you write, that some things will just emerge. And in the writing of the memoir, I realized that generational trauma was playing a major role. Mm-hmm. My mother suffered from, uh, s- uh, a bipolar disorder. She had rages.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And I hadn't really understood that fully until I started to write the novel and how that affected me.

I talked about, you know, at one point in college being so depressed I wanted to step off a building. Mm-hmm. And I thought that was just me.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: What I'm reading now and what we're learning is that generational trauma, my mother watched her mother-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: die from tuberculosis-

Zhou Fang: Oh, gosh ...

James Bonilla: in Puerto Rico, and it's a horrible death.

It's a lot of coughing of blood and-

Zhou Fang: Pain ...

James Bonilla: and at 14 my mother [00:34:00] watched- Very painful ... yeah, my mother watched her mother die of that, and was pretty traumatized for the rest of her life.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And not intentionally, but they're fi- now finding genetically the notion of trauma is transmitted genetically from one generation to the other.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: Which has profound, they're finding profound implications for communities of color, you know, who've dealt with slavery or racism. Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: Definitely.

James Bonilla: And, you know, that was a big aha for me. I, I hadn't even started to go there.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And as a result, I start, I opened the book with a scene, uh, with my mother, uh, chasing me with a knife.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Yep. And, uh, so that was- An emerging theme that I had not thought I would get into. Mm-hmm. And it's also been a theme that has been one of the biggest learning experiences for me-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: in this. And, and [00:35:00] talking with not just students, with people from all walks of life, all different ages, being able to relate not just to disability, but to this notion of anxiety, depression- Hmm

and trauma.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, it's, it's really, I think there's some estimations that 70% of the adult population has some trauma in their life.

Zhou Fang: I believe it. I mean, the majority of us don't talk about it.

James Bonilla: No.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. And I mean, the younger generations are more open to it, for sure. Still, I feel there's a lot of stigma and taboo.

Yes. And of course, financial barrier. Um, I know some people who would love to get access to, um, mental health kind of, um, therapy or, um, activities or some help. Uh, but, you know, like, a lot of the therapies are out of pocket.

James Bonilla: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: Um, and I think the kind of state-sponsored [00:36:00] or, right, accessible ones, they are either not the right match or, um, it's a long wait list.

Yes. 'Cause there are no- That's what

James Bonilla: I found ...

Zhou Fang: there are no enough practitioners available- Right ... for folks. Right. Yeah. Like, you have to get on the waiting list, and-

James Bonilla: Yes ...

Zhou Fang: you know, what could happen during that waiting time?

James Bonilla: That's the scary part, yes.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I agree. Exactly. Yeah,

James Bonilla: yeah.

Zhou Fang: So, yeah, I, I just hope, you know, talking about making progress, over time we can get more resource that's more accessible, not only, like, to break down the stigma or taboo, but also make it available for people.

You know, like, talking about inclusion and equity, right? Like, it shouldn't be a luxury, I feel. Receiving, receiving care should just be the standard, right? Right. Like, the bare minimum is to provide care to people. Like, it shouldn't be available to people who have financial [00:37:00] means. Um, yeah, so, so yeah, so- And, and

James Bonilla: again, that's another parallel to the other, you know, the intersectionality thing that, you know, this cuts across all the isms.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, one more thing that I realized as you were talking and thinking aloud, I realized that one of the other similarities that issues of disability-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: and particularly mental illness- Mm-hmm ... has in common with things like racism or sexism is internalized depression. Yeah. And by that, I mean, you don't need somebody to say-

Zhou Fang: Totally

James Bonilla: "You're not good enough." You internalize those beliefs, and- And, and the shame involved with those

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And I- Oh. I, I, I tell a story early on where I watch a kid in our neighborhood deal with his mother who was having, you know, uh, she was drunk, she was off her medications, she was sitting in a window half-naked, and the kid was in [00:38:00] tears.

And it was ironic- Mm ... because he was also the neighborhood bully.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. But

James Bonilla: I knew then that I would never talk to anybody about my mother's mental health issues-

Zhou Fang: Yeah ...

James Bonilla: because I, I didn't wanna be associated with that.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, and you know, that was- Wow ... part of the writing of the book was- Getting beyond my own internalized depression-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: around, uh, mental illness that, you know, um, when I graduated from college, I had taken a, a civil service test. Mm. And when I graduated from college, there was a really bad recession. So jobs in my field, which was therapeutic recreation, were really hard to come by.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: But I had taken the civil service test, and I get this letter from a state institution in New York called Creedmoor Psychiatric Center offering me a very high-paying job with all these benefits.

And without even considering the alternatives, I was like, "No way I'm gonna work with those, [00:39:00] those people." So, um, you know, and for your, for your audience, you know, you can't see, but I'm doing air quotes, "those people." Yeah. Air quotes. Um, because I think I had learned, uh, to be ashamed of that in my own family, and I was scared of it because, you know, uh, I had had- Mm

some scary experiences with my own mother-

Zhou Fang: Sure ...

James Bonilla: dealing with, and I didn't, I didn't want anything to do with that population.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: So, you know, the internalized depression is there as well.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that's another very relatable, I think, you know, experience you mentioned, is we all have that internalized isms or internalized, mm, oppression or internalized discrimination.

And, you know, oftentimes that's an indication of, um, how we see ourselves. Um- Right ... and have that fear of, oh, if I do this, d- [00:40:00] does that mean I'm that? Like, it's confusing, and it's definitely something I feel for folks who are working on, like, healing, like internal healing. Um, just be curious about that kind of idea.

Like, when, when some stereotype comes up, like, why does that make you feel uncomfortable?

James Bonilla: Yeah,

Zhou Fang: yeah. Like, it's just- Yeah ... is there anything wrong with it necessarily, or it's our internalized, um, bias or oppression?

James Bonilla: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think that internalized, uh, bias is really reinforced and, uh, initially planted in us by society.

Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Absolutely.

James Bonilla: And then it gets reinforced, gets reinforced, gets reinforced- Yeah ... until we no longer need somebody to say to us, "Oh, you can't do that." Yeah. We start... You know, when I was writing my dissertation, I got into a, a writing group with two African American men who were also in [00:41:00] doctoral programs.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: And, you know, we were regularly struggling with- Our internalized oppress- you know, we called it imposter fraud fake syndrome.

Zhou Fang: Sure.

James Bonilla: Which was actually coined, a term that was coined by a woman at UMass. Mm-hmm. Um, but we had to overcome that.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. We all

James Bonilla: did. Because w- yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. We, we had to sort of un- Yeah.

Yeah ... we had to stop playing that tape in our heads because that was blocking us more than anything else.

Zhou Fang: Absolutely. So- Yeah ...

James Bonilla: so being i- in relationship to other, you know, in our case, people of color- Mm-hmm ... uh, talking about how we f- felt like we didn't belong in higher ed.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, that really helped us, um, get over that.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, that's such a valuable kind of, I don't know, it's a lesson for folks who still aspire to go to higher education. I know the idea of going to [00:42:00] higher ed is actually not that appealing right now. Yes. Just thinking about economy and stuff. Sure. But if you still aspire to go down that route, just absolutely, like, you can do it.

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, it's not, it's not an elite thing. A lot of people think of it as an elite thing, but you sh- really shouldn't be. Um, so thank you for sharing that. Um, so going back to your book a little bit, um, at the end of our show, we will definitely invite you to talk about, you know, where do people find the book, where do people find you.

But right now, I have this book in my hands, and I was flipping through it. Um, and this chapter kind of, like, stood out to me. It is, um- Stumbling into spirits in nature. And I, as men- as you mentioned earlier, you wrote about, you know, make [00:43:00] green organizations diverse or multicultural. So it seems like you have a very personal connection to nature.

And in this chapter you talked about your experience in the Pacific Coast redwoods. Mm-hmm. Which I just happened to have that, uh, experience last year myself as well. So I find this chapter very interesting and relatable to me, and also very healing. Oh, good.

James Bonilla: Um,

Zhou Fang: yeah, so, um, but I'm very curious, like why did you add, you know, the stumbling into spirit in nature, uh, i- in your book, in your memoir?

Yeah. Um, yeah. Tell me more.

James Bonilla: Sure. I'm so glad that you found it something that you could, uh, reverberate with. Uh- Mm ... the, the, you know, I had said earlier when I was in an undergraduate, you know, there were no counseling services. Uh, and [00:44:00] I was, you know, struggling with Depression, anxiety, not fitting in because I was both Puerto Rican and legally blind.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And, um, you know, that really ended up, uh, sort of, um, piling in on itself to the point that I stood at the top of a 10 story, what I thought was a 10 story building at the time, and I was gonna jump off.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And an amazing thing happened. I'm standing on the ledge of this building, and above my head there's nothing because it's, you know, the sky, and I hear this scream above my head.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And I look up and there's a red-tailed hawk circling right above where I was standing.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And, you know, red-tailed hawks really do have a red tail.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And the sun was behind this hawk, and the hawk was between me and the sun.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And the way the sun was shining, its tail was, like, glowing [00:45:00] red.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And it felt to me that at that moment, that was a signal from the universe, "Stop."

Yeah. "This is not a good idea."

Zhou Fang: Bad

James Bonilla: idea. And I've had, you know, I, I write in several other instances, I think the, the e- episode in, uh, Santa Cruz Mountains is one of those-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: where nature has really, uh, contributed to my healing in immense ways. Mm.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Before there were things like therapy and counseling, which I also recommend highly.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

James Bonilla: But, um, nat- it, it felt like nature found me-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: and helped me to overcome some of the pain that was, uh, in my life.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, so and, and, you know, that experience has made me all the more keen, and that's why I started to do research-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: about environmental organizations, because I, I feel like more folks of color-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: would benefit From being in nature and in environmental [00:46:00] situations-

Zhou Fang: Mm ...

James Bonilla: for things like mental health and-

Zhou Fang: Yeah ...

James Bonilla: helping, you know, there's... And now there's increasing work about nature therapy and outdoor therapy. Mm-hmm. But I wanna make sure that becomes accessible to communities of color.

Zhou Fang: Mm. Well said, and I cannot agree more.

I know, you know, a lot of folks of color, um, transportation could be an issue. However, if you have ways to get access to nature, definitely highly recommended. The thing is, it's available. It doesn't really charge you. Mm-hmm. Like, you go to nature, you be in nature, that's essentially free.

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: And, um, so yeah, nature is just so generous and just full of this healing energy- Yes

um, that- Yes ... we all benefit from. Yes. So I do want to read these quotes you wrote in these, uh, chapters, Stumbling to Spirit in [00:47:00] Nature, um, 'cause I think this is a nice thing to kind of, to, to do before we start to wrap up our conversation. And this quote is by Shunryu Suzuki. Uh, "Wherever you are, you are one with the clouds and one with the sun and the stars you see.

You are one with everything. That is more true than I can say and more true than you can hear." So, yeah

James Bonilla: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: I like

James Bonilla: that quote

Zhou Fang: too That, that's beautiful. Yeah.

James Bonilla: Yeah. Um- And let me just say one thing about nature and, you know, sometimes transportation is an issue.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: You know, I'm finding more and more, uh, places in cities where nature is doing well.

And one place I'll mention, there's a park in Manhattan that I found. Mm-hmm. When I was a n- uh, delivery boy, I would take my break at this place. It's called Paley Park, and if you can imagine, [00:48:00] you know, really tall buildings, one building had been taken down. It had been a notorious, uh, speakeasy called The Stork Club.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And the guy who owned it, to make amends, had taken the building down, but he had left a five story tall wall over which he had a waterfall.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And then he planted trees along the walls so that when you stepped into this park, you know, from 52nd Street, which was really noisy, as soon as you walked into the park, the sound of the waterfall drowned out the city.

Zhou Fang: Of

James Bonilla: course. And the trees were full of birds.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: So it is very possible, it might take a little extra work- Mm-hmm ... but it's very possible to find oases of nature in cities.

Zhou Fang: Definitely.

James Bonilla: And Central Park being a, a great example.

Zhou Fang: I agree. Yeah.

James Bonilla: But, so I, I make that plug that even if you live in a city You know, [00:49:00] the park down the street can be a place where you feel the sun, you hear the birds-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm

James Bonilla: and where kids can play, you know, in grass. Yeah. Right?

Zhou Fang: Yeah. No, I agree. Um, I'm very lucky to be living in Portland, and- Oh, good ... we have, like, parks everywhere.

James Bonilla: Yes.

Zhou Fang: And we have allegedly one of the biggest urban forests, uh, in the United- Oh ... States. So you need to visit- That's great. I've been to the Japanese

James Bonilla: garden in, in Portland

Zhou Fang: it's beautiful. Yeah.

Oh

James Bonilla: my goodness, breathtaking.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

James Bonilla: Yeah, yeah.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I mean, next time you come here, um, let me know. We'll go on some hikes and check out- Oh, great ... some parks. Yeah.

James Bonilla: Great. Great.

Zhou Fang: Um, so it has been such a, a wonderful conversation, James. It's so rich, and a lot of things you talked about, you know, of course you are from an older generation and I'm slightly newer.

But a lot of the things I feel the beauty about intersectionality is we can relate to each other, um, the experiences we share. [00:50:00] And I really appreciated you combining your personal experience with disability and mental health into your, um, like, your work now is, you know, advocacy and storytelling and educate.

Um, so thank you so much. And so as we wrap up our conversation, I want to invite you to share, you know, how do people find the book? How do people find you? How do people invite you to speak to their people?

James Bonilla: Okay. Well, thank you. Y- and, you know, this has been a great conversation, and I give you credit with asking great questions and so it's, it's been a two-way, uh, delight.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: Thank you. Uh, my book is been, uh, published by the University of Minnesota Press.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

James Bonilla: And there's, at their website you can go to James Francisco Bonilla Or you can go look for An Eye for an Eye, and there's information there about the book. There's testimonials, there's ways to [00:51:00] contact me. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm also, you can just email me at J-B-O-N-I-L-L-A, jbonilla@hamline, H-A-M-L-I-N-E.edu.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

James Bonilla: Um, and you know, I will get back to you. Uh, because yeah, I do think that for me, especially when people... I've had, um, and I have another one coming up next week. I just had one this past week. Book groups have been getting together and reading the book.

Zhou Fang: Amazing.

James Bonilla: And then they invite me to, i- into conversation with them.

So I'm not doing, I can do a book talk- Mm-hmm ... but when I, with a group of people who've read the book, it's just so much deeper-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm ...

James Bonilla: that it's really- It's rich ... it's, it, yeah, it's a tickle for me, so.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

James Bonilla: That's wonderful. So those are some opportunities that, you know, I'd be happy to help people facilitate.

Zhou Fang: Mm. Awesome. Yeah. That's great. We'll make sure all the information is in the show notes. Uh, we'll make sure to share [00:52:00] widely, uh, to the public as well. Um, so again, thank you so much, James. And folks, please go check out An Eye for an Eye, a memoir by James Francisco Bonilla.

James Bonilla: Thank you for hosting this really important podcast.

Zhou Fang: Yes. Thank you. I'm flattered.

James Bonilla: Okay.

Zhou Fang: All right. Uh, I'll hold on. I'm gonna stop recording here. Don't leave just yet.

James Bonilla: Okay